Tuesday, May 26, 2009
Post 4
Well that was a shocking ending, even for me (and I already saw the movie). Did anyone think that the Camerlengo was going to end up being behind the whole scheme? Also, what did everyone think about the scene when Mortati revealed that the Camerlengo was the pope's son? What are your thoughts about the ethics behind the former pope's past? (Was he right to secretly raise a son? Just because he din't break his vow of celibacy, does tht make it ok?)
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Since I saw the movie before I read the book, I've been looking for parts that would foreshadow the Camerlengo being evil. If you look in the middle of chapter 85, there is a passage where the Camerlengo is praying before he sees the old pope's body. "Your told me when I was young that the voice in my heart was the of God. You told me I must follow it no matter what painful places it leads. I hear that voice now, asking of me impossible tasks. Give me strength. Bestow on me forgiveness. What I do...I do in the name of everything you believe. Amen." When I first read this i immediately thought of how the Camerlengo was going to end up doing a bunch of evil things but justified it by his "love for God". I'm sure if I didn't see the movie I neve would have thought of this; i'm probably just overthining the section, but just thought I would put that out here. Anyway, I did not see it coming when the Camerlengo was revealed as the pope's son! I can't believe this part was left out of the move because I thought it added so muc to the story. However, I don't think that the old pope was right to decide to have a child, even though he didn't brea his vow of celibacy. It's kind of like he went out of his wayt o bend the rules so that he could have everything he wanted. He should have decided between either remaining a hugh church official, or starting a family witht he women he loved instead.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I was completely shocked at that twist of events. The whole time I thought that Kohler was plotting something and that he'd definitely be behind this whole fiasco, but I was so wrong! I can't believe they then killed him, an innocent man because they were wrong.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree with the ethics of the Pope raising carmelengo as his son, I see that as a perfect exception to the rules of the clergy, but I'm not sure how realistic it is. We Catholics are not very accepting of much, and I'm not sure if that really is a legal exception, especially of nuns. He couldn't really have left the church, because he still felt that his place was to be close to God, and the best place to do that is in the church. Most people say that you can't have your cake and eat it too, but he obviously did. His lack of honesty however did him in in the end, and it's very much his just desserts for lying the entire time about the events that really happened. Had he not lied to his son, then who knows what may have happened in the end?
I was thinking the smae thing with the "you can't have your cake and eat it too". Except I still really don't think he should have tried to do both. He very well could have remained an active member of the church, without being a member of the clergy. I think he was a bit selfish for trying to keep all of these secrets and I'm also kind of made that Mortati was the guy who was supposed to tell about anything he found out about the pope before he was elected and he chose not to. If they chose not to tell everyone about that information, they obviously realized that it really wasn't ok.
ReplyDeleteHe obviously knew that it was wrong because he kept it a secret. Now technically he didn't break his vows, but he did it through the marvels of science- science that the church does not approve of and just like that you have the basis of the entire book.
ReplyDelete...Wow. Now THAT'S an ending. I was not expecting that at all. I thought that, like Pat said, Kohler was behind the whole thing. Although, after the camerlengo parachuted out of the helicopter, I could start to see that something was a little fishy.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I think that the Pope should have had the kid. I mean, he was just engaging in another one of God's gifts. Plus, I think it's another step to bringing the church and science closer together. I mean, does everything have to be so "black and white"? Why can't we have a little "gray" area? I think that's why Mortati chose to keep it a secret; this was the Pope that was going to try and bring science and the church closer together, to end the endless tensions between the two. Kohler and the camerlengo are basically foils of each other; they represent the two conservative factions that don't want to compromise. And look where that got them? Absolutely nowhere. Now they're both in caskets.
I agree with Alex. I feel like there needs to be much more gray. A good portion of the reason as to why the debate between science and religion exists is because both sides dont want to compromise. Even when (in the past) the church knows theyre wrong, they try to cover it up or discredit the findings. This was definitely a huge suprise and the ending was AMAZING.
ReplyDeleteAs for the Camerlengo again, I'm glad the pope raised him as his son. I dont think it would realistically happen, but hey, it makes a good story. There are quite a few things in this book that arent realistic, but that just makes things interesting.
And I knew Kohler wasnt going to be behind all this. I always did like his character. =]
and Im really sad that all the Cardinals died. Almost everyone died, really. Well, I certainly wasn't expecting it... Anyway, I was hoping that at least one of the cardinals would have lived. What a mess of an ending though. I still can't believe it.
ReplyDeletekersten, you should see the movie. Even though I would say that the book is a million time better, there is one thing that I think the movie does well: one of thecardinals lives. Sorry to spoil it but whatever it's still really cool to watch.
ReplyDeleteanyway, I get what you guys are all saying about how it was ok for the pope to have a kid, but I'm still thinking ethically here. I don't think it is right to commmit yourself to a conservative religion and then try to bend the rules. I mean, there are other forms of christianity; he could have chosen to convert of let's just say presbyterian for example, and then he could have happily served god while still being allowed to enjoy a family. I certainly don't agree with a lot of the strict catholic rules, but that doesn't make it ok to commit yourself to following them and then completely throwign them all away. You have to decide: you either follow teh rules, or you find a place that accepts you as you are. I just don't think that what he decided was fiar to anyone; he pretty much took advantage of the church and put Mortati in a really tough position.
Meagan brings up a good point about how Catholicism is so conservative, and how he shouldn't have dedicated himself to it if he wanted to be so...liberal. Well, what if it was time to change? What if the Pope realized that in order to survive in this changing world, that they need to change with it? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I was just thinking about how maybe he just wanted to ensure its survival by changing with the times, you know, instead of being so narrow-minded.
ReplyDeleteYeah. Maybe the pope was a man who was extremely religious. Maybe he had the best intentions for the Catholic Church and he wanted to help it survive. In that sense, he could become the Pope and allow the Vatican to be more accepting and liberal.
ReplyDeleteI personally think that celibacy is stupid, considering birth is technically a miracle of life, but the Pope did stay within the boundaries. He wanted to keep moving up the ladder, but still have a child to love. He didnt break the vow of celibacy, so he never did anything wrong. The church has no rules about having kids, just sex. I really admire the Pope for what he did.
Alex makes a good point. What the pope did was sort of like a bridge between science and religion. He was trying to bring them closer. He never broke any of the rules set down by the clergey, so it is perfectly acceptable for him to have a kid.
ReplyDeleteThe ending of the book was sooooo good. It was so twisted that my neck almost snapped in half.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, if I was the Camerlengo, I probably would have lit myself on fire too. Killing your own dad has to be the worst feeling in the world. But, his father should have told him he was his son much earlier. Hiding the truth from your children is a terrible thing to do. If I was adopted and my parents never told me by now, I would be very offended. As we can see, by the father not telling the Camerlengo he is his son, there was big repercussions.
So technically, the whole problem in the book stems from the pope not telling the Camerlengo his big secret. What a simple concept turned into a huge complex matter.
The Camerlengo might have a few screws loose in his head as well. I don't believe Priests or popes or camerlengos have any direct connection with god where they can communicate back and forth. Anyone can go to priest school. I could go to priest school if I really wanted to. The Camerlengos whole religious message from God had to have been made up in his head.
In all irony, the Pope was the one who was trying to save the dying faith in church by building a relationship with science. Science is the new trend. Instead of trying to fight what everyone is flocking to, why not try to prove the existence of God with science? It makes perfect sense. Even though the Pope was very old, he still understood that times were changing and the church needed to change with it.
ReplyDeleteCause Mike, what Vittoria said was kind of true. She said in chapter 131 that doubt was one thing that really kept people from coming to the church. Vittoria said that it is "our need to know that life has meaning. Man's insecurity and need for an enlightened soul assuring him everything is a part of a master plan." If people knew that God existed, they would have faith, but they wouldn't need to go to that higher authority: the priest or w/e. Both science and religion were obeying a miraculous God. They just wouldn't agree.
ReplyDelete